10000 BCE & Lower limit on timing of Ramayana

What follows is Youtube video of my webcast at a Ram-Navami function held at New Delhi on 15 April 2016.

I encourage all researchers to critique my claims, from whichever angle they seem able – astronomy interpretation, translation, transposition, transliteration, interpolation errors, or any other aspect.

 

 

 

 

 

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25 thoughts on “10000 BCE & Lower limit on timing of Ramayana

  1. Hi, keep up the great work you have been doing.

    I have a question about start of Ritu Shishira at winter solstice in ancient times. During the time when the extant Vedang Jyotish was written, this was true. But older texts point to Vasanta starting with spring equinox.

    Take for example:

    Mahabharata Book 5 Chapter 81
    ….
    6 [व]
    ततॊ वयपेते तमसि सूर्ये विमल उद्गते
    मैत्रे मुहूर्ते संप्राप्ते मृद्व अर्चिषि दिवाकरे
    7 कौमुदे मासि रेवत्यां शरद अन्ते हिमागमे
    सफीतसस्यमुखे काले कल्यः सत्त्ववतां वरः
    8 मङ्गल्याः पुण्यनिर्घॊषा वाचः शृण्वंश च सूनृताः
    बराह्मणानां परतीतानाम ऋषीणाम इव वासवः
    …..

    “Vaisampayana continued, ‘The night having passed away, a bright sun arose in the east. The hour called Maitra set in, and the rays of the sun were still mild. The month was (Kaumuda Kartika) under the constellation Revati. It was the season of dew, Autumn having departed. The earth was covered with abundant crops all around.

    ———-

    Here The month of Kartika is starting with Hemant (after Sharad ritu is over). Margashirsha would start in the middle of Hemant. Margashirsha being Agrahayana will start in the middle of Hemant.

    I have been looking for more definitive passages which describe when a year started in older texts and although I have found many indirect references, I haven’t found a more straight forward passage. Let me know if you have found any references that are clear.

    • Ganesh ji

      Thank you for your comments.

      (1) There is no clear reference to lunar month of ‘Kartika’ above.. but rather to the month of ‘lotuses’.

      Now many interpreters have taken this to mean ‘lunar month of Kartika’. And if they have succeeded in whatever point they were making by doing that, good for them.

      (2) This reference of Mahabharata text that refers to Krishna leaving on peace mission …at the end of SHARAD rutu and at the beginning (or during) of Hemanta Rutu, conflicts with rest of the Mahabharata text evidence (astronomy, chronology, seasons, etc.).

      Thus I would not base my conclusions on one such reference that especially conflicts with rest of Mahabharata text.

      (3) Even ignoring/keeping aside the two specific points I made above….. Where exactly do you see mention (or infer) beginning of Vasanta rutu with the point of Spring equinox in the above verse?

      Would you elaborate how you arrived at that conclusion?

      • Hi Nilesh,

        I take the next sentence “The earth was covered with abundant crops all around” as a sign of harvest month.

        Also elsewhere there is clearer reference to the Kartika being part of Hemant (or at least after Sharad)

        The Mahabharata, Book 12: Santi Parva: Apaddharmanusasana Parva: Section CLXXI

        Brahmanas. Every year (on the days of full moon) of the months of Ashadha and Magha, a large number of Brahmanas used to receive from the Rakshasa chief, after proper honours, the best kinds of food that they desired. Especially, on the day of full moon in the month of Kartika, after the expiry of autumn, the king used to give unto the Brahmanas much wealth of diverse kinds, including gold, silver, jewels, gems, pearls, diamonds of great value, stones of the lapis lazuli variety, deer-skins, and skins of the Ranku deer.

        तासु ते पूजिता राज्ञा निषण्णा द्विजसत्तमाः | व्यराजन्त महाराज नक्षत्रपतयो यथा ||१३||
        ततो जाम्बूनदाः पात्रीर्वज्राङ्का विमलाः शुभाः | वरान्नपूर्णा विप्रेभ्यः प्रादान्मधुघृताप्लुताः ||१४||
        तस्य नित्यं तथाषाढ्यां माघ्यां च बहवो द्विजाः | ईप्सितं भोजनवरं लभन्ते सत्कृतं सदा ||१५||
        विशेषतस्तु कार्त्तिक्यां द्विजेभ्यः सम्प्रयच्छति | शरद्व्यपाये रत्नानि पौर्णमास्यामिति श्रुतिः ||१६|| </b?
        सुवर्णं रजतं चैव मणीनथ च मौक्तिकम् | वज्रान्महाधनांश्चैव वैडूर्याजिनराङ्कवान् ||१७||

        Now with my question:

        In your very interesting video, I hear you mentioning that Chaitra starts in middle of Spring. I have been looking for clear references of when the ancient Indians started of the year. The year may have started at various points during different ages (1) spring/vernal equinox, (2) summer solstice, (3) autumn equinox, (4) start of sisira (either (a) 61 days before spring equinox and Vasanta starting with spring equinox or (b) sisira and autumn equinox starting together and Vasanta starting earlier than spring equinox)

        I was curious if you have found any clear citings of any of the above and would like to be aware of them.

        BTW, great job on the analysis leading to "Epoch of Arundhati"!

      • The answer to your question first….

        There are no clear references as to when exactly year began either in the Ramayana or Mahabharata text.

        I agree with you that year would have started at some of the key cardinal points. Also it is easily conceivable to have multiple calendars (not unlike we have today… one year starting in January, one at Chaitra, one at Kartika and so on.

        Glad you liked AV observation. Not many understand this very powerful and simple (and that is why it is powerful) observation.

        Have you read my books? If you have, I would appreciate you providing criticism of them….brutal and rational. Nothing else.

        Thanks

        Nilesh


        Will get back to you on possible issue with references of Kartika from Mahabharata text.

  2. Here is another indirect reference to Aagraayana rituals underway in Hemamnta from Ramayana. There may need to be minor adjustment if your calculations are based on Start of Shishira = winter solstice.

    http://www.valmikiramayan.net/aranya/sarga16/aranya_16_frame.htm

    ————

    vasataH tasya tu sukham raaghavasya mahaatmanaH |
    sharad vyapaaye hema.ntaR^itur iSTaH pravartata || 4-16-1
    1. mahaatmanaH tasya raaghavasya= noble-souled, that, Raghava’s; sukham vasataH= comfortably, while staying; sharat vyapaaye= autumn, season, on passing off; iSTaH hemanta R^ituH= pleasant, pre-winter, season; pravartate= set in.
    Pleasant hemantha R^itu , pre-winter season has set in after the passage of sharat R^itu, post-rainy season at Panchavati where the noble souled Rama is staying comfortably. [4-16-1]

    Verse Locator
    sa kadaacit prabhaataayaam sharvaryaam raghuna.ndanaH |
    prayayaava abhiSekaartham ramyam godaavariim nadiim || 4-16-2
    2. kadaacit= on some day; saH raghu nandanaH = he Raghu’s, legatee – Rama; sharvaryaam prabhaataayaam = night, when becoming day – at dawn; ramyam godaavariim nadiim = to delightful, Godavari, river; abhiSeka artham prayayaava = bath, for purpose of, started.
    On some day when night faded into dawn Rama started for the delightful River Godavari for a bath. [4-16-2]

    Verse Locator
    prahvaH kalasha hasataH tam siitayaa saha viiryavaan |
    pR^iSThato anuvrajan bhraataa saumitrir idam abraviit || 4-16-3
    3. bhraataa viiryavaan= with brother, valorous one [Lakshmana]; prahvaH= humbly; kalasha hasataH= with vessel, in hand; saumitriH = Saumitri; pR^iSThataH= at back; siitayaa saha= Seetha, along with; anuvrajan= while following; idam abraviit= this, spoke.
    His valorous brother Saumitri following him humbly with a handy vessel, along with Seetha, spoke this to Rama. [4-16-3]

    Verse Locator
    ayam sa kaalaH sa.mpraaptaH priyo yaH te priya.mvada |
    ala.mkR^ita iva aabhaati yena sa.mvatsaraH shubhaH || 4-16-4
    4. priyam vada= oh, pleasant, conversationalist; yaH te priyaH= by which, to you, is pleasant; saH ayam kaalaH= that, this one, is the time; [samvatsrasya= of the year]; sampraaptaH= has set in; yena= by which; shubhaH samvatsaraH= propitious – promising, year; alamkR^ita iva aabhaati= is adorned, as though, bright.
    “Adorned by which season the promising year will be bright, oh, pleasant conversationalist, and which season will also be pleasant to you, that hemanta season has set in. [4-16-4]

    Verse Locator
    niihaara paruSo lokaH pR^ithivii sasya maalinii |
    jalaani anupabhogyaani subhago havya vaahanaH || 4-16-5
    5. lokaH= world [people]; niihaara paruSaH = by dew, [bodies] harsh; pR^ithivii sasya maalinii = earth is, crops, has on it; jalaani an upabhogyaani= waters, not, enjoyable; havya vaahanaH subhagaH = oblation, carrier [the fire,] delightful [warmish.]
    “These days the dew is harsh to the bodies of people, earth is overlaid with crops, water is unenjoyable, but fire is delightful. [4-16-5]

    Verse Locator
    nava aagrayaNa puujaabhir abhyarcya pitR^i devataaH |
    kR^ita aagrayaNakaaH kaale santo vigata kalmaSaaH || 4-16-6
    6. santaH= righteous persons; nava aagrayaNa puujaabhiH = in new [northern,] solstice, with worships; pitR^i devataaH = ancestral, deities [manes]; abhyarcya= having appeased; kaale kR^ita aagrayaNakaaH = in time, performing, solstitial rituals; vigata kalmaSaaH = becoming free of, evils.
    “On appeasing manes with worships during northern solstice and even on performing solstitial rituals in time, the righteous people are becoming free from evils. [4-16-6]

    The ritual agraayaNa is a havis , oblation performed after the arrival of harvest at home from fields and before the start of its usage. Usually this is the time of Makara Sankranti, the starting day of northern solstice. na anviÿ÷a ˜gr˜yaõe na ˜hit˜gni navasya aþnŸy˜t vrŸhŸn˜m yav˜n˜m þy˜mak˜n˜m iti agra p˜kasya yajeta — ˜pasthamba s¨tra

    ————

    • I presume you are referring to this verse..

      नव आग्रयण पूजाभिर् अभ्यर्च्य पितृ देवताः |
      कृत आग्रयणकाः काले सन्तो विगत कल्मषाः || ४-१६-६

      What is it about this reference (or total of 6 verses you have quoted) that leads to , in your mind, a need for minor change to my timeline?

      No, my calculations are not based on beginning of Shishir rutu = day of winter solstice.

      In addition, I have not come across any other reference (within or outside Ramayana) that tells me why beginning of Shishir Rutu should not be counted from the day of winter solstice.

      May be you are trying to make some critical point (which could be of immense importance). Unfortunately, I am failing to understand it.

  3. I speed-read through your books about Mahabharata and Ramayana dating.

    I was not been able to match your Mahabharata analysis using Stellarium (stellarium.org). I have bought Voyager 4.5 and waiting for its delivery. What this means is not all sky mapping softwares will match your analysis. It will depend on the data the software uses to map the positions of planets in the past.

    I was pleased to see that in the Ramayana related book you included refernced shlokas and figures “inline”. It was quiet cumbersome to follow the notes at the end of the book in Mahabharata related book. It would have been better if you had also included the translation. The number of the shloka is also missing in a few places making it difficult to find the meaning.

    In Ramayana dating you seem to have concluded that Chaitra was around fall. I would like to attract your attention to the following passages in Kishkindha Kanda which suggests quiet the opposite. I couldn’t follow clearly how you concluded Chaitra in fall. I think the following passage is very clear, indicating vernal equinox near Phaluguni pornima.

    http://www.valmikiramayan.net/utf8/kish/sarga28/kishkindha_28_frame.htm

    =======
    अयम् स कालः संप्राप्तः समयो अद्य जल आगमः |
    संपश्य त्वम् नभो मेघैः संवृतम् गिरि संनिभैः || ३-२८-२

    2. saH = that – time, of which we thought; ayam = is this; kaalaH = time; sam praaptaH = has come to pass; adya jala aagamaH samayaH = now, waters, coming [rains,] season; giri sannibhaiH = mountain, similar; meghaiH = with clouds; samvR^itam = fully covered; nabhaH = sky; tvam sampashya = you, see.

    “This is that time of which we thought and it has come to pass. Now it is rainy season. You see the sky fully covered with mountainous clouds. [3-28-2]

    एषा घर्म परिक्लिष्टा नव वारि परिप्लुता |
    सीता इव शोक संतप्ता मही बाष्पम् विमुंचति || ३-२८-७
    7. gharma pari kliSTaa = by searing-summer, overly, agonised; nava vaari pari plutaa = by new, waters, thoroughly, flooded – wetted; eSaa mahii = this, earth; shoka santaptaa = by grief, fully, searing; siitaa iva = Seetha, like; baaSpam vi muncati = earth, tears, verily – implacably, outpouring.
    Overly agonised with the searing-summer, but thoroughly wetted with new waters, this earth looks like Seetha, both implacably outpouring tears. [3-28-7]

    मासि प्रौष्ठपदे ब्रह्म ब्राह्मणानाम् विवक्षताम् |
    अयम् अध्याय समयः सामगानाम् उपस्थितः || ३-२८-५४
    54. prauSThapade maasi = Bhaadrapada, in month; brahma = for Vedic-studies; vivakSataam = having concern; saama gaanaam = Sama Veda, those that sing; braahmaNaanaam = for such Brahmans; ayam adhyaaya samayaH = this one, learnable, time; upasthitaH = has come forth.
    The month of Bhaadrapada, is the time for learning the singing of Sama Veda, and this is the time that has come for those Brahmans who concern themselves for learning the singing of Sama Veda. [3-28-54]

    निवृत्त कर्म आयतनो नूनम् संचित संचयः |
    आषाढीम् अभ्युपगतो भरतः कोसल अधिपः || ३-२८-५५
    55. nivR^itta karma aayatanaH = one who has carried out, affairs, domestic; sancita sancayaH = garnering, goods; kosala adhipaH bharataH = Kosala’s, king, Bharata; aaSaaDhiim = full moon day – pertaining to aaSaadha month; abhyupagataH = reached – undertaken; nuunam = definitely.
    “On carrying out all the domestic affairs and completely garnering the goods for rainy season, Bharata, the king of Kosala, might have definitely undertaken the ‘four-month-vow’ on the full moon day of aSaaDha month. My additional comment: this points to the first four-month-vow four month back in Vasanta on Phalugni full-moon day (see Chaturmasya Ishti for details)

    इमाः स्फीत गुणा वर्षाः सुग्रीवः सुखम् अश्नुते |
    विजित अरिः स दारः च राज्ये महति च स्थितः || ३-२८-५७
    57. vi jita ariH = one who has – verily, conquered, enemy – Sugreeva on conquering Vali; sa daaraH ca = with, wife, also; mahati raajye sthitaH ca = in an admirable, kingdom, instituted; such; sugriivaH = Sugreeva; sphiita guNaa imaaH varSaaH = that have – manifold, merits – inbuilt facilities, these, rains – in rainy season; sukham ashnute = luxuries, he partakes – he luxuriate in.
    This rainy season as such has manifold inbuilt facilities for self-contained entertainment, so Sugreeva must be luxuriating in them, besides, revelling for conquering his enemy, regaining his wife, and instituting himself as a king of an admirable kingdom. [3-28-57]

    =======

    I admire the effort you have put into your books! You certainly have been busy.

      • my comments in bold

        Figure 5

        On 30-OCT-5562 BC

        Shani is near U Phalguni (in 5 years will be in Vishakha – not really near)
        Guru near Anuradha (17-Aug-5562 BC at Vishakha)

        On 30-OCT-5561 BC

        Shani is near Hasta
        Guru near Moola (17-AUG-5562 BC at Vishakha)

        Vakri motion: Mars & Jupiter While Vartak translated, erroneously I think, ‘Mars went retrograde near Magha and Jupiter was near Shravana11’, I translate this observation as ‘Mars traveled vakri near Magha and so did Jupiter (traveled vakri) near Shravana11’. It is true that Jupiter was near Shravana on 16 October,

        Jupiter is near Anuradha on 16-OCT-5562 BC and ner Moola at 16-OCT 5561 BC

        Mars goes retrograde near Vishakha on 1-8-5560 BC (not near Chitra) crosses ecliptic near Chitra on 1-APR-5560 BC and stops being in retrograde on the same day (1-APR)

        Proposed Timeline:

        2. Duryodhana ordered his royal friends to leave for Kurukshetra on the day of Pushya: 6-7 September 5561 B.C.
        Shravana/Dhanishtha nakshatra on 6-SEP-5561 BC, Dhanishtha/Shatbhisha on 7-SEP

        4. Shakra (Jyeshtha or possibly Vishakha) Amawasya: 16-17 September 5561 B.C.
        Amavasya is on 28-SEP-5561 BC

        7. Kartika Purnima (Full moon): 30 September – 1 October 5561 B.C.
        30 SEP is not Kartika Pornima . It is Margashirsha Shukla Dwitiya.

        Also solar eclipse is two months later on 26-NOV-5061 on Paush Amavasya

      • Thank you Ganesh Ji.

        More than likely you are looking for all this data one year prior to 5561 BCE. (or it could be the other way round).

        Keep in mind that some software count Year 0 BC/AD and other’s don’t.

        So that we start on the same point. check for year 5562 BCE, 5561 BCE and 5560 BCE (per Stellarium) and tell me for which of these 3, position of Mars is between/near Dhanishtha and Shravana on 16 October (Julian). that is the first day of Mahabharata war per my (and DR. Vartak) timeline.

        On a side note I very much appreciate you going into these details. This is the kind of detailed level validation and criticism required before accepting or rejecting a claim. I will also inform you that at least 6+ independent individuals have crosschecked my claims (via Voyager) using Stellarium in the past and they have given thumps up!

        My point being, there are small differences between software, (specifically with positions of the moon – Delta T correction issues) and at times with fast moving planets (Mercury, Venus and may be Mars)…but otherwise all decent software should lead to the same conclusion.

        Look forward to your input.

        Nilesh

    • Thanks. See my previous comment. Once we nail down proper correspondence between Stellarium and Voyager (e.g. 5560 BCE of Stellarium is same as 5561 BCE of Voyager)…we will look at individual observations.

      We will begin with 2 non-planetary observations.

      (1) AV observation
      (2) Duration between Fall of Bhishma and Bhishma Nirvana for year 5561 BCE and my claimed date for fall of Bhishma (25 October 5561 BCE)

      And once both of us are on the same page.. we will go to slow moving planets… Saturn and Jupiter.

      Then Mars

      and so on…

    • Ganesh ji,

      Here is a comment from one polymath who has indeed verified my claims for Mahabharata war – 5561 BCE

      He wrote, elsewhere…

      “Volks – try out Stellarium. I use it on Mac, so don’t know how it performs on other OS. Its free. You can try and track what Nilesh ji is saying. Also its open source. If there is interest, it can be adapted. Algorithms used are standard, the same that are used in commercial ones.”

  4. Hi Ganeshji,
    Please try to check the dates that you have mentioned here (which do not match with Voyager) again for the year 5560 BC (ie -5560) on Stellarium. At least the moon positions in Stellarium for 5560 BC will ‘almost’ match with Voyager (I know few other planet positions may not match; probably due to the algorithm and/or data Stellarium uses compared to Voyager).
    The general rule would be, if one wants to look at the positions for a certain year in BC in Stellarium, subtract 1 & negate the value & use that number. eg. for checking positions for 5561 BC enter -5560 in Stellarium since it uses Astronomical year numbering (as mentioned by Nileshji in the above comments).
    Astronomical year numbering : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_year_numbering

    • Thanks Amey.

      Do you happen to have a table of comparison for specific Mahabharata astronomy observations and then corresponding details based on Stellarium (and/or Voyager).

      If you have data from Stellarium simulations, we can create a table.

      Let me know

      Nilesh

      • I don’t have a table created as such. But that is actually a great idea. I don’t have Mahabharata book with me as somebody has borrowed it from me. I may look into creating something on the same lines as you mentioned once I get my book back .
        On the other hand, the development of Stellarium is continuously going on. It seems like they will be incorporating the DE 431 in their next release (0.15.0 or already released in 0.14.9??). DE 431 will give the range between approx. 13K BC to 17K AD. Once we get that it will be fun to compare stellarium & voyager.

  5. I checked using Stellarium the observations in Bhishmaparva chapters 2 and 3.

    I have taken relevant Mahabharata passages from these resources:
    1) BORI edition available at http://sanskritdocuments.org/mirrors/mahabharata/unic/mbh06_sa.html
    2) Translation by Krishna Mohan Ganguli available at http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/MahabharataOfVyasa-EnglishTranslationByKMGanguli.pdf
    3) Secondary translation reference: https://archive.org/stream/aproseenglishtr01duttgoog#page/n12/mode/1up

    Here are my observations: (my comments are in bold)

    Bhishma Parva 6-2

    श्वेतलोहितपर्यन्ताः कृष्णग्रीवाः सविद्युतः |
    त्रिवर्णाः परिघाः सन्धौ भानुमावारयन्त्युत ||२१||
    In both the twilights, prior and posterior, I daily behold, O Bharata, the sun during his rising and setting to be covered by headless trunks. Tri-coloured clouds with their extremities white and red and necks black, charged with lightning, and resembling maces (in figure) envelope the sun in both twilights.
    no comment

    ज्वलितार्केन्दुनक्षत्रं निर्विशेषदिनक्षपम् |
    अहोरात्रं मया दृष्टं तत्क्षयाय भविष्यति ||२२||
    I have seen the sun, the moon, and the stars to be all blazing. No difference in their aspect is to be noted in the evening. I have seen this all day and all night. All this forbodes fear.
    no comment

    अलक्ष्यः प्रभया हीनः पौर्णमासीं च कार्त्तिकीम् |
    चन्द्रोऽभूदग्निवर्णश्च समवर्णे नभस्तले ||२३||
    On even the fifteenth night of the lighted-fortnight in (the month of) Kartika, the moon, divested of splendour, became invisible, or of the hue of fire, the firmament being of the hue of the lotus.
    Yes, this matches – there seems to be a lunar eclipse

    या चैषा विश्रुता राजंस्त्रैलोक्ये साधुसंमता |
    अरुन्धती तयाप्येष वसिष्ठः पृष्ठतः कृतः ||३१||
    She, O king, who is celebrated over the three worlds and is applauded by the righteous,
    even that (constellation) Arundhati keepeth (her lord) Vasistha on her back.
    Sounds like a temporary situation. Like Arundhati was following Vasishtha until recently. I had mistakenly thought that the context was different. I thought Bhishma was telling Pandavas how to kill him. “Approach me hiding behind Shikhandi, like Vasishtha behind Arundhati” or something like that.”

    In this context, Vyasa seems to be saying everything is going crazy (now) – even Arundhati is putting Vasishtha in the back. Such statement makes sense at the beginning of the epoch of Arundhati, but almost 5000 years after the epoch started, it doesn’t make sense.

    रोहिणीं पीडयन्नेष स्थितो राजञ्शनैश्चरः |
    व्यावृत्तं लक्ष्म सोमस्य भविष्यति महद्भयम् ||३२||
    The planet Sani also, O king, appeareth afflicting (the constellation) Rohini.
    Assuming, this means they are on opposite side of sky, this matches
    The sign of the deer in the Moon hath deviated from its usual position.

    Bhishma Parva 6-3

    अभीक्ष्णं कम्पते भूमिरर्कं राहुस्तथाग्रसत् |
    श्वेतो ग्रहस्तथा चित्रां समतिक्रम्य तिष्ठति ||११||
    The earth is frequently trembling, and Rahu approacheth towards the sun.
    The white planet (Ketu May be Shani) stayeth, having passed beyond the constellation Chitra.
    Assuming Shweta = Shani, Yes, Shani is near Chitra
    If Shweta = Budha as per your interpretation (as suggested in your book), does not match. Budha is in Shravana on the first day, stays in Shravana and Dhanishtha for all the time, and will arrive in Chitra next year.

    अभावं हि विशेषेण कुरूणां प्रतिपश्यति |
    धूमकेतुर्महाघोरः पुष्यमाक्रम्य तिष्ठति ||१२||
    All this particularly bodeth the destruction of the Kurus.
    A fierce comet riseth, afflicting the constellation Pusya.
    In Stellarium I can’t see this comets – so no comment on the claim that there is a comment far away from sun in Pushya

    सेनयोरशिवं घोरं करिष्यति महाग्रहः |
    मघास्वङ्गारको वक्रः श्रवणे च बृहस्पतिः ||१३||
    This great planet will cause frightful mischief to both the armies.
    Mars wheeleth towards Magha and Vrihaspati (Jupiter) towards Sravana.
    You suggest this may mean Mars crosses ecliptic near Magha and Jupiter does the same near Sravana. This indeed does happen. But it takes 7 to 9 months for these crossings to occur. This time delay makes it less likely that they have any relevance. Also I would have been more accepting of such interpretation if we are talking about crossing equator. Because south of equator belongs to Yama and North belongs to Gods. In short, this novel idea is getting weak in terms of supporting 5561 BC as year of war.

    भाग्यं नक्षत्रमाक्रम्य सूर्यपुत्रेण पीड्यते |
    शुक्रः प्रोष्ठपदे पूर्वे समारुह्य विशां पते ||१४||
    उत्तरे तु परिक्रम्य सहितः प्रत्युदीक्षते ||१४||
    The Sun’s offspring (Sani) approaching towards the constellation (with devata) Bhaga (i.e. Purva Phalguni), afflicteth it. This is not satisfied in 5561 BC. Shani was in Purva Phalguni in 5563 BC and is going in the opposite direcion now.
    The planet Sukra, ascending towards Purva Bhadra, shineth brilliantly, Yes!
    and wheeling towards the Uttara Bhadra, looketh towards it Yes! ,
    having effected a junction (with a smaller planet) Not sure of this. Does not show parikrama in Stellarium

    श्यामो ग्रहः प्रज्वलितः सधूमः सहपावकः |
    ऐन्द्रं तेजस्वि नक्षत्रं ज्येष्ठामाक्रम्य तिष्ठति ||१५||
    The white don’t know if Ganguli’s manuscripts had shweto. It is unlikely that his translation has a typo. planet (Ketu Shani, Budha, something else? ), blazing up like fire mixed with smoke, stayeth,
    having attacked the bright constellation Jeshtha (or Vishakha?) that is sacred to Indra
    Neither Rahu, Nor Ketu, nor Budha are तिष्ठति in Jyeshtha or Vishakha. In fact there are no grahas in these nakshatras. Therefore 5561 BC year is not satisfy this criteria.

    ध्रुवः प्रज्वलितो घोरमपसव्यं प्रवर्तते |
    चित्रास्वात्यन्तरे चैव धिष्ठितः परुषो ग्रहः ||१६||
    The constellation Dhruva, blazing fiercely, wheeleth towards the right. Both the Moon and the Sun are afflicting Rohini ?
    The fierce planet Rahu ( Rahu doesn’t satisfy but Shani does ) hath taken up its position between the constellations Chitra and Swati.
    Shani is between Chitra and Swati, but not Rahu

    वक्रानुवक्रं कृत्वा च श्रवणे पावकप्रभः |
    ब्रह्मराशिं समावृत्य लोहिताङ्गो व्यवस्थितः ||१७||
    The red-bodied Mars possessed of the effulgence of fire, wheeling circuitously,
    stayeth in a line with the constellation Sravana over-ridden byVrihaspati.
    5561 BC does not satisfy this criteria. Mars crosses ecliptic near Punarvasu and retrograde near Vishakha and Chitra – nothing near Shravana, Had passed Jupiter and equator near Uttara Ashadha last month

    ग्रहौ ताम्रारुणशिखौ प्रज्वलन्ताविव स्थितौ |
    सप्तर्षीणामुदाराणां समवच्छाद्य वै प्रभाम् ||२४||
    The effulgence of the constellation known by the name of the seven high-souled Rishis, hath been dimmed.
    not sure which two planets are meant by ताम्रारुणशिखौ

    संवत्सरस्थायिनौ च ग्रहौ प्रज्वलितावुभौ |
    विशाखयोः समीपस्थौ बृहस्पतिशनैश्चरौ ||२५||
    Those two blazing planets, viz., Vrihaspati and Sani, having approached the constellation called
    Visakha, have become stationary there for a whole year.
    5561 BC does not satisfy this criteria: Jupiter and Saturn have not become stationary in Vishakha, They are not in Vishakha for a year. They can’t be also called to be near Vishakha. Jupiter was in Vishakha a couple of years back and will not arrive again for 10 years. Saturn is in Chitra but will take 2-3 years more to reach Vishakha

    कृत्तिकासु ग्रहस्तीव्रो नक्षत्रे प्रथमे ज्वलन् |
    वपूंष्यपहरन्भासा धूमकेतुरिव स्थितः ||२६||
    Rahu of fierce deeds is also, O monarch, afflicting the constellation Kirtika. Rough winds, portending fierce danger, are constantly blowing.
    5561 BC does not satisfy this criteria: No planets including Rahu , Ketu near Krittika,
    nor in the nearby nakshatras – Purva Bhadrapada, Uttra Bhadrapada, Revati, Ashwini, Bharani, Krittika, Rohini, Mrigashiras Ketu is between Ardra and Punarvasu on the first day.

    त्रिषु पूर्वेषु सर्वेषु नक्षत्रेषु विशां पते |
    बुधः सम्पततेऽभीक्ष्णं जनयन्सुमहद्भयम् ||२७||
    The constellations are divided into three classes. Upon one or another of each class,
    a planet of evil omen has shed its influence, foreboding terrible dangers.
    To complicated to verify

    चतुर्दशीं पञ्चदशीं भूतपूर्वां च षोडशीम् |
    इमां तु नाभिजानामि अमावास्यां त्रयोदशीम् ||२८||
    A lunar fortnight had hitherto consisted of fourteen days, or fifteen days (as usual), or sixteen days.
    This, however, I never knew that the day of new-moon would be on the thirteenth day from the first lunation,
    or the day of full-moon on the thirteenth day from the same.

    Comment: I think thirteenth day eclipses probably occur more than 10% of the time. not that uncommon. Out of 16382 eclipses in 5000 year catalog by NASA, 1935 happened within 14 days from previous eclipse (which means they probably happened on 13th paksha day). There would be certainly still more eclipses that happened on 13th day but didn’t have an eclipse before prior pratipada.

    Two consecutive eclipses both on thirteenth day is truly rare to impossible.

    चन्द्रसूर्यावुभौ ग्रस्तावेकमासे त्रयोदशीम् |
    अपर्वणि ग्रहावेतौ प्रजाः सङ्क्षपयिष्यतः ||२९||
    And yet in course of the same month both the Moon and the Sun have undergone eclipses on the thirteenth days from the day of the first lunation. 
    5561 BC does not satisfy this – First eclipse is on 13th day but second eclipse is on 15th day. I believe it is impossible to have consecutive eclipses on 13th day.
    The Sun and the Moon therefore, by undergoing eclipses on unusual days, 4 will cause a great slaughter of the creatures of the earth
    Note: According to Stellarium software, the solar eclipse is partial from India and may have been annular or full in Indonesia.

    • Ganesh ji

      Great effort.

      However you missed the crucial point I made in my response to you in this very blog article. Please check.

      It is very crucial that you comprehend the simplicity and thus high degree of testability and high prior nonprobability of AV observation. You very much missed this critical point when you wrote…

      “या चैषा विश्रुता राजंस्त्रैलोक्ये साधुसंमता |
      अरुन्धती तयाप्येष वसिष्ठः पृष्ठतः कृतः ||३१||
      She, O king, who is celebrated over the three worlds and is applauded by the righteous,
      even that (constellation) Arundhati keepeth (her lord) Vasistha on her back.
      Sounds like a temporary situation. Like Arundhati was following Vasishtha until recently. I had mistakenly thought that the context was different. I thought Bhishma was telling Pandavas how to kill him. “Approach me hiding behind Shikhandi, like Vasishtha behind Arundhati” or something like that.”

      In this context, Vyasa seems to be saying everything is going crazy (now) – even Arundhati is putting Vasishtha in the back.

      Such statement makes sense at the beginning of the epoch of Arundhati, but almost 5000 years after the epoch started, it doesn’t make sense.”

      The problem with your speculation (that it was ok at the beginning of Epoch of Arundhati but not ok after 5000 years)is that you have already jumped into ‘psychoanalysis’ either of Vyasa or your interpretation of it.

      The issue is rather simple…

      Mahabharata text states that Arundhati was walking ahead of Vasistha at the time of Mahabharata war.

      Arundhati was walking ahead of Vasistha fomr 11091 BCE through 4508 BCE.

      Thus any year proposed during this time interval will corroborate AV observation for that year.

      Now, if someone proposes a year that falls at the beginning of Epoch of Arundhati, that is all fine and well. But then one needs to propose one. Until then the point is mute.

      This is very common point of misunderstanding and it has made to the list of FAQ. You may read number of articles right here on my blog site (type keywords such as Talageri, Elst, Virendra) to find out numerous blog articles where I discuss this point.

      The very reason I bothered to write the book was because of AV observation. Otherwise I was researching our ancient Indian history for 15+ years when I wrote the book, but I had not found anything worth writing.

      Once we are on the same page with the inferences of (conclusions due to) AV observation, then next thing we should discuss is another simple, and thus highly testable observation(s) for the duration of Bhishma on the bed of arrows.

      Then, we should look at set of observations related to slow moving (visible) planet of Saturn, followed for another set of observations related to next to Saturn, slow moving planet of Jupiter..

      and not the forget the last critical part of scientific process, i.e. to discuss my theory/proposal in the context of existing (by 2011 CE) proposal for Mahabharata war that was considered a best proposal, based on some criteria or of your choice.

      To wit,

      Copernicus proposal was celebrated, not because it was perfect (in fact it had many problems) but because it made significant improvement over the existing and accepted proposal of Ptolemy.

      The same sequence followed when Cosmology models were further improved by Tycho Brahe, Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Einstein…

  6. I am not psychoanalyzing Vyasa, and I don’t intend to.

    All I am saying is 5561 BC does not explain:

    Bhishma Parva chapter 2

    या चैषा विश्रुता राजंस्त्रैलोक्ये साधुसंमता |
    अरुन्धती तयाप्येष वसिष्ठः पृष्ठतः कृतः ||३१||

    Bhishma parva chapter 3

    भाग्यं नक्षत्रमाक्रम्य सूर्यपुत्रेण पीड्यते |
    शुक्रः प्रोष्ठपदे पूर्वे समारुह्य विशां पते ||१४||
    उत्तरे तु परिक्रम्य सहितः प्रत्युदीक्षते ||१४||

    श्यामो ग्रहः प्रज्वलितः सधूमः सहपावकः |
    ऐन्द्रं तेजस्वि नक्षत्रं ज्येष्ठामाक्रम्य तिष्ठति ||१५||

    वक्रानुवक्रं कृत्वा च श्रवणे पावकप्रभः |
    ब्रह्मराशिं समावृत्य लोहिताङ्गो व्यवस्थितः ||१७||

    संवत्सरस्थायिनौ च ग्रहौ प्रज्वलितावुभौ |
    विशाखयोः समीपस्थौ बृहस्पतिशनैश्चरौ ||२५||

    कृत्तिकासु ग्रहस्तीव्रो नक्षत्रे प्रथमे ज्वलन् |
    वपूंष्यपहरन्भासा धूमकेतुरिव स्थितः ||२६||

    चन्द्रसूर्यावुभौ ग्रस्तावेकमासे त्रयोदशीम् |
    अपर्वणि ग्रहावेतौ प्रजाः सङ्क्षपयिष्यतः ||२९||

    Anaushasan Parva
    तस्य नित्यं तथाषाढ्यां माघ्यां च बहवो द्विजाः | ईप्सितं भोजनवरं लभन्ते सत्कृतं सदा ||१५||
    विशेषतस्तु कार्त्तिक्यां द्विजेभ्यः सम्प्रयच्छति | शरद्व्यपाये रत्नानि पौर्णमास्यामिति श्रुतिः ||१६||

    Mahabharata Book 5 Chapter 81
    ….
    6 [व]
    ततॊ वयपेते तमसि सूर्ये विमल उद्गते
    मैत्रे मुहूर्ते संप्राप्ते मृद्व अर्चिषि दिवाकरे
    7 कौमुदे मासि रेवत्यां शरद अन्ते हिमागमे
    सफीतसस्यमुखे काले कल्यः सत्त्ववतां वरः
    8 मङ्गल्याः पुण्यनिर्घॊषा वाचः शृण्वंश च सूनृताः
    बराह्मणानां परतीतानाम ऋषीणाम इव वासवः

    and so on.

    Because Mahabharata was first written as Jaya, then expanded to Bharata, and then to Mahabharata.
    There are multiple areas of texts added at multiple times. So I can understand that different sections will map to different timeframes.

    I would expect Bhishma parva references to point to the war year. But if sufficient references do converge to one particular year I am quiet comfortable in assuming it is not possible to decide when the war took place, or in the least when the text was actually written.

    No we aren’t on the same page, and it is probably not possible for us to get on the same page.

    • Ganesh ji,

      You wrote…

      “No we aren’t on the same page, and it is probably not possible for us to get on the same page”

      Thank you. This is indeed I assumed when you went on a tangent with AV observation. You are not alone and you are in a great company.

      However this one statement of yours (below) takes the cake! if indeed what you wrote is what you mean. (and not a typographical mistake)

      “I would expect Bhishma parva references to point to the war year. But if sufficient references do converge to one particular year I am quiet comfortable in assuming it is not possible to decide when the war took place, or in the least when the text was actually written.”

      Thank you for reading my books and analyzing them to the best of your ability and providing critique of them. Humanity has progressed through such criticism of existing research.

      These interactions provide me impetus to continue to work on the path. We have a long way to go. But then there is no preset destination. In fact journey is the destination.

      Regards,

      Nilesh

  7. I would like to have the e-mail address of Shri. Ganesh Puranic. I would like to forward to him my writings on the Mahabharata Book of yours. About Arundhati ahead of Vasishtha, your book provides the graph on a time base. Only the period when Arundhati was maximum ahead of Vasishtha would qualify for timing of the war. At maximum ahead she was just 30-35 seconds ahead nad could be just about noticed to be ahead BY NAKED EYE. Ganesh Ji should take this into account.
    My e-mail address is pkphadnis@yahoo.com

    • I do not have email address of Shri Ganesh Puranik. I hope he is reading this and will (may) respond to you.

      You may want to note down some of the self conflicting statements of Shri Ganesh Puranik.

      He claimed that he was impressed with my work on ‘Epoch of Arundhati’ but then after few posts he states 5561 BCE does not cut it for EOA. Why? Because he now wants a date that is in the early part of EOA.. near 10000 BCE.

      Does he propose one? Nah…

      Moving further…

      He quoted standard ‘Sharadante hImagame’, but then runs away (in fact says nothing) from the consequences of such a references, especially per his own interpretation (that the reference refers to a timing of OUR TIMES (+/-2000 years.. of past and also of future) as the timing of Mahabharata war.

      He runs away stating we (he and I) can not be on the same page. Of course, he is darn right about that.

      I thank Shri Ganesh Puranik for presenting himself, as a classic illustration of ‘Tamasic Sceptic’.

      I run into them all the time. I can sense one from miles away. But consciously and per my own strategy, I let them have a feel that they are taking me on a ride. Of course, I do this from a ‘Dharmic’ standpoint. That is, even when the questions and arguments originate from a ‘Tamasic’ viewpoint, i.e. to create hurdles rather than to solve problems which in turn leads to growth of knowledge, these questions and arguments are extremely powerful in education of many who are sincere in their quest but lack the training or knowledge in how to approach such arguments.

      That is why in my knowledge framework, I call both ‘Tamasic sceptics’ and ‘Superficical manipulators’ as knowledge producers.

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