Dr. Elst & Shri Shrikant Talageri

Shri Shrikant Talageri wrote in comment to one of my blog article (part of 1 of 8 part series I wrote in response to Dr. Elst comment on AV observation.

I hope that Shri Shrikant Talgeri will read rest of the parts of that series and will post more comments.

I also plan to respond to comments of Shri Shrikant Talageri, however, wanted to post his comment in full for benefit of readers.

In the sprit of education, self-learning and educating others, it will be great if readers take this as an opportunity to respond to comments of Shri Talageri. This would provide a good exercise for readers to asses how much they understand Archeo-astronomy, testable and non-testable theories, logic of scientific methodology and most importantly deductive process of reasoning.
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Comments of Shri Shrikant Talageri follows..

I think Nilesh Oak misses the central point of Koenraad Elst’s rejection of his “Arundhati phenomenon” argument. The very fact that Vyasa “saw Arundhati rise before her twin star Vasishtha”, and mentions it as one of the evil omens seen by him, proves that this could definitely not have been “between the 12th and the 5th millennia BCE”. In that period, Arundhati always rose before her twin star Vasishtha, and so no-one seeing it rise thus would have treated it as an “omen” of anything, good or evil. For example, the sun always rises in the east, and no-one would treat an observation that the sun rose in the east as an “omen” of anything.
Therefore, the observation pertains to a period long after 4508 BCE, when Arundhati never rose before her twin star Vasishtha, and anyone making an observation that it rose before Vasishtha would naturally treat it as an “omen”, as for example it would definitely be if the sun was suddenly observed rising from the west. This is simple logic.
Nilesh would then argue that the sun can never rise from the west, and Arundhati, after 4508 BCE, could never be seen rising before Vasishtha, and that this statement represents a “visual observation of the sky”, and therefore must pertain to a period before 4508 BCE. But then why would Vyasa describe a perfectly normal daily phenomenon of that period as an “omen”? We can not, just for our own wishful purposes, ignore the fact that the observation is made only from the point of view of an “omen”, and we can not treat it as a “visual observation” and ignore the “omen” part of it.
Then what kind of an observation is it? Obviously, omens are not reported by every Tom, Dick and Harry; they are only reported by people who are supposed to have special psychic or visionary powers that allow them to see things that others can not see, and therefore Vyasa’s vision of Arundhati rising before Vasishtha was not supposed to be a “visual observation of the sky” but a “psychic observation” not visible to others of a non-normal phenomenon. This is the only logical meaning of Vyasa’s observed omen: before 4508 BCE, it would not have been an “omen”, and after 4508 BCE, it could not have been an “observation”.
Could we write a scholarly thesis proving that air-borne vehicles were present in India in the 13th century AD (CE) on the basis of “visual observations” recorded by people who saw Sant Dnyaneshwar of Maharashtra riding on a wall to meet Changdev?

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7 thoughts on “Dr. Elst & Shri Shrikant Talageri

  1. Before anyone posts any responses to my above comments, I want to make one thing very clear: while I am sceptical about the use of astronomy in general as a tool in dating our ancient Indian past, I am naturally not averse to any genuine evidence which would show the Mahabharata war to be older than the date that I accept (1400-1500 BCE). After all, I an also an Indian, a Hindu and an opponent of those who have been falsifying our history since the last two centuries. But I can not let my personal sentiments override facts and data. Not being an astronomical expert myself, I will let people more well versed in astronomy debate and decide the issue so far as it concerns the large number of astronomical references which Oak claims prove his date. However, when it comes to this “Arundhati phenomenon” argument, which Oak himself notes has not been discovered by all the numerous astronomical scholars before him, I find it unacceptable on the grounds mentioned in my above comments.

    [I did read the other seven parts of this series, and they do not add anything to the first part so far as the “Arundhati phenomenon” argument is concerned, so I have no comments to make on them. I have given my arguments for the date of the Mahabharata, 1400-1500 BCE, in the concluding part of my reply to Narhari Achar, which is available on the internet. But those are non-astronomical arguments; and I have nothing of my own to say on Nilesh Oak’s other astronomical arguments other than this “Arundhati phenomenon” one].

  2. Nilesh ji,

    I think what Shrikant ji has asked is the same point that myself and many others (as you said) had raised before.
    If I remember correctly, you had already responded to those questions and that post should be around somewhere in your blog or the Bharat Rakshak thread.
    This one has become a FAQ 🙂

    Regards,
    Virendra

  3. Hi Shrikant u r really genius,,,,,,
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  4. I want to keep my fingers crossed on Arundhati issue and not make comment on one side (Shri. Nilesh Oak) or other ( Talageri and Konrad Elst.). Sidestepping the nitty gritty of this debate I want to talk about the BROADER issue in general. If we want to make a Paradigm Shift …where we want to REWRITE the chronology of India, we would need new AREAS where we collect evidence. It is hard to COUNTER the established view in LINGUISTICS …but it is not so hard in new DOMAINS ( say archeoastronomy.). And western scholars have traditionally UNDERAPPRECIATED the immense astronomical information that is encoded in PURANA, Epics, and Vedas….but the tide is slowly turning, and it seems Shri Nilesh Oak is at the very center of these efforts. I personally know from SCIENCE research how hard it is is to change WELL-ENTRENCHED views. Gathering more and more hard evidence is the way out, and archeoastronomy OFFERS that tremendous opportunity to us. Kudos to this work in that perspective.

    • You don’t have to take sides. But do read my 8 part series (at this very blog site) where I responded to Dr. Elst’s and also Shri Talageri’s objections to AV observations.

      Do write your feedback.

      Shri Shrikant Talageri have done excellent work on linguistics, responding to Videshi Indologists on their own turf.

      will write more later… much more exciting stuff. Do check out my numerous blog articles. here.

      Warm regards,

      Nilesh

  5. New domains like archeoastronomy ( with solidly built up of evidence) would help Desi Indologists to successfully COUNTER the WRONG narratives that have been perpetrated about India. In the traditional domains like linguistics (how hard one may try) MAINSTREAM scholarship would not allow one to make EASY inroads. In such domains, it is not an easy path. Whereas relatively newer domains like archeoastronomy provide BETTER hope.

    • Agree.

      And while tremendous evidence, and it is very exciting for 5561 BCE, is being uncovered from the multiple disciplines of science – hydrology, oceanography, climatology, geology, geophysics, paleontology, anthropology, genetics, seismology, genealogies of kings and sages and their mention/occurrence in Rigveda, Mahabharata & Ramayana, all of this coupled with additional astronomy evidence from all ancient Indian narratives……

      It is only astronomy – archaeo-astronomy, so far, that has shown capability/ability of providing specific claims for the year, day, month of the ancient events (Mahabharata war, Ramayana, etc.)

      And these claims are highly testable, at least in most cases.

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